March 10, 2013 at 1:23 am #531688SnagsMember
A lot of rare breeds of animals would be extinct if there wasnt a market to eat them and therefore breed them.March 10, 2013 at 8:57 am #531689AnonymousGuest
factory and broadacre farming will prolificate and organic(corrupted by certification) will float along only because of the yuppie middle earners set who can afford a premium based product(a premium that should not exist). we’ve been to these catchy farmer markets things and teh food is over the moon on price, we could never afford to live that way.
we grow lots of stuff our costs minimal, we share lots of our stuff, we are not going broke, it cost no more than planting seedlings and watching them grow. so why the organic premium on mr farmer joe’s stuff at farmer’s markets.
the conventional farm cruelty will burgeon as food gets dearer, food needs to be grown local and away from the midle man investor opportunity retailers
this so called barn/free range garbage with chooks all they did was take chooks out of cages and run them on teh floor of the shed, and still each morning that conventional farmer collects oodles of dead birds. so nothing has improved.
what really need to happen is return all the habitat, and live off native grazing animals, get rid of these ferel imports(see landline all that science time spent), like someone said in nother thread how can we trust science in our health issues when they fail in the weather/climate and oterh fields.
what we need is a united aussie community living with humain ethics.
get certification out of organics, get middle men out of organics and sell it for its worth, if i can give kilo’s of stuff away then the organic “farmer” doesn’t need to charge so much.
lenMarch 10, 2013 at 2:29 pm #531690casalentaMember
Andre post=354412 wrote: casalenta:
I take my hat off to you and anyone who thoroughly considers the origins of their foods, and makes a conscientious choice. By choosing to give your business to ethical, cruelty free farms is a far preferable option.
I think we all make a choice. Choosing not to think about it and just buy the cheapest foods is a choice.
I have no doubt in many cases – the way commercial animal farms are run – there is much cruelty, pain and suffering. With that knowledge, would continuing to eat produce from those farms makes those people just as guilty?
Can I ask:
why would ‘factory farms’ increase if no one was eating animals (if factory farms are the meat-producing ones I mean), and
why would organic farms decrease if more people were eating good, nutritional fruit and veg?
I would have thought the opposite effect would take place.
Okay, here’s my logic:
1. Throughout our evolution we have been omnivores, and so it’s no surprise that a majority of people like eating meat, fish, poultry etc. That’s unlikely to change any time soon and so there will always (or at least for the foreseeable future) be people who would like to eat meat. You will NEVER have the situation where NO ONE is eating animals.
2. There are two basic kinds of people: those who care about the welfare of farm animals and those who couldn’t care less. People who don’t like or want to think about it are in the second category.
3. There are two basic kinds of farmers producing animals for meat: those who farm ethically and take care of the welfare of animals, and those who couldn’t care less about the welfare of their animals (except where it has an economic impact) and who think of them as manufactured products rather than sentient beings.
4. Now, suppose all the people who care about animal welfare become vegans. Who will be the customers of the ethical farmers? They can’t survive without customers and so will go out of business. The factory farms will continue to thrive because their customers are people who couldn’t care less, and will actually do better because their competition has been wiped out.
You will end up with Australia looking like parts of America, with no animals at all in the fields, but many gigantic sheds in which animals are kept for their entire miserable lives. Free range, organic, ethical farmers cannot survive if they have no customers.
Going vegetarian is little better because if you want organic, free range eggs or dairy products the farmer has the problem of excess male and older animals overrunning the farm. The people who couldn’t care less are not going to buy the meat, because they prefer to get cheaper meat from factory farms. So who will buy the meat?
I get meat from the mixed dairy farm that supplies me with raw milk, and from the local farmer’s market. ‘My’ dairy farmers are good, ethical and honest people, and like many farmers come from a long line of dairy farmers and wouldn’t know or want to do anything else. I like seeing all the cows, sheep and pigs in the paddocks there, and they’re happy animals living good lives, and I can see that they’re well looked after. I want to support farmers like them, and if everyone who cares about the animals ate meat from such farms this type of farm could thrive and at least give the people who couldn’t care less a choice.March 11, 2013 at 2:46 am #531691SnagsMember
If local was priority in your ethical options as it should be,omnivore would be the easiest one to achieve especially paleo or low carb omnivore due to the lack of grains or pulses in most areas but the ready supply of fruit veg and animal proteins.
Eating pulses and grains imported from 3rd world countries is also an ethical dilemma with grains like Quinoa now being so popular amongst 1st world vegetarians and vegans that the local South Americans who have traditionally eaten it for centuries cant afford to eat it.
Even the decision on whether to change from a Mediterranean diet to a SE Asian diet because of the non availability of say onions or garlic grown locally in the subtropics but the ready supply of the alternatives like shallots and garlic chives.
Obviously you would need to source local rice soy products and fish sauce.
Local rice would be the hardest to get but so would local wheat.
Economically it would be very difficult to localise grain production (and certain pulses),due to labour or machinery infrastructure costs.
Makes you wonder whether ethically we should be adapting to a more local indigenous food diet.March 12, 2013 at 12:49 pm #531692BronMember
(I haven’t read all the responses)
I am, for the main, an ethical omnivore. Yes, animals die to feed me, but everything is born with the full intent of dying anyway. If they have a pleasant life in the interim and die humanely, I’m fine with that. Humans aren’t meant to be vegan or vegetarian, we’re omnivores. My diet means my risk of health issues is far lower than most peoples’, so I’ll put far less strain on resources that way.
I don’t eat wheat, and very little other grain, so my way of eating doesn’t clear thousands of acres of native animal habitats. I also don’t consume palm oil, because apart from it being unhealthy, it may well be the cause of the extinction of the orangutan. And in a very cruel way, judging by the pictures and reports available.March 14, 2013 at 2:37 pm #531693AshilleongMember
This has been a very interesting, well informed discussion.
Personally, I am an omnivore who is trying to eat more ethically. I am not persuated by the vegan exploitation arguements, but I would like to see the animals treated well and killed ‘humanely’.
We grow some of our own vegatables in our small courtyard garden and are currently in the process (a long, drawn out process) of buying a house on 5 acres in NSW where we hope to grow more of our own food and have chickens.
I don’t think I could deal with killing my own food animals – I’m too emotionally attached to anything I have raised, so I prefer to support local, preferrably organic industry. I feel getting to know your suppliers lets you get a good handle on how the animals are kept. It’s only been a recent change, but my husband and I have found ourselves more often asking “Where does this meat come from?” because, to us, it matters.March 14, 2013 at 8:40 pm #531694XioMember
I’m wondering why it’s not ethical to eat certain meats but it’s ethical to eat fishMarch 14, 2013 at 10:25 pm #531695JarnMember
Just to add a few thoughts, the thought that choosing to be a vegan does not result in the death of animals for ones needs is a bit short focused. Just think for a moment if large numbers of people moved to be a vegetarian or vegan, and then think about the amount of increased crops required to provide the vegetation food needs for the vegetation only eating masses. the increased crops have to grow somewhere. this develops monoculture (not the best for the environments diversity and results in the destruction of habitat, resulting in decreasing (death) of species) but the crop fields do become habitat to some species, then comes harvesting time, what happens to the snakes, lizards, marsupials, birds etc that have made the new crop fields their home- many of them die, as a result of people needing vegetation for food. Whilst some people may feel that this is not as bad as killing an animal to eat it, I struggle to see the difference, other than the animal is most likely native and was not meant to be farmed for food, meanwhile animals still died and thousands of hectares of habitat were cleared so that the vegetarian or vegan can eat the wheat crop or other vegetation crops. Simply thinking choosing to eat vegies over meat will not result in animals dying so one can eat is not thinking outside the box. the question needs to be asked, how many animals died and how many hectares of natural habitat were destroyed to bring me my bowl of vegies, loaf of bread and my plate of tofu. Only then can you weigh up the true ethics of choosing a diet that has the least impact on animals and the environment they require to survive.March 14, 2013 at 10:33 pm #531696GirlFridayMember
One of the vegan/ vegetarian arguements is how many kilos of grain it takes to make one kilo of meat (beef I assume) which really could be fed to humans. Thing is- ideally cows shouldnt be fed grain, they are herbivores and are meant to eat grass and convert it to protein. In the attempts to fatten cows faster someone came up with the great idea to feed them grain which overall isnt really healthy for them. Now I can eat meat and survive but I would have a hard time eating grass and surviving.
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