November 27, 2009 at 9:35 am #441097DepomeMember
The global financial crisis is as much as Jo Blow can handle at one time. Can’t possibly consider the future as well as the present :confused:
:pNovember 1, 2010 at 7:47 am #441098
Peak Oil is also a ‘short-hand’ description for the raft of economic consequences that occur when ‘growth’ is throttled by energy and rescource constraints. The root cause of our economy’s addiction to growth, is our debt-based money system.November 1, 2010 at 11:29 am #441099
Hey Bootstrapper-I have been having so many epiphanies about our current money system which inherently is predicated on and by endless ‘growth’ that I am surprised my brain has been able to handle it as well as I have with out losing my mind. I had an inkling about the illusions that interest(or usury) and debt expansion have on our thinking for years but it has only been in the last 6 months that I had the awful realisation of where it is heading.
The way money is lent into existence in most(all?) modern economies is quite simple and very difficult to believe.November 1, 2010 at 1:20 pm #441100
Debt-based money is arguably the greatest scam in all Human history. What’s mind-boggling about it isn’t it’s complexity, but rather it’s simplicity!
I want to stress that there’s nothing wrong with the concept that someone pays you to use your property, whether that property is a house (rent), a boat (hire) or a wad of cash (interest). The problem is how the money is brought into existence in the first place. Debt-based money is at it’s root, a mechanism designed to siphon wealth, invisibly and continuously, from those who create it to those who have the (exclusive) privilege of issuing money. The mechanism is Inflation.
IMO, what we’re taught about money is both wrong and harmful to our best interests. we’re taught just enough to be able to play our assigned ‘role’ but not enough to make us aware that a signifigant portion of the wealth we produce is being stolen from us. The role of money in any complex society, is to act as a catylist for commerce – the exchange of goods and services. Nothing else. The idea that money is a ‘store of wealth’ corrupts the primary functions of ‘medium of exchange’ and ‘measure of (relative) value’. It encourages us to hoard money, thus reducing the velocity of circulation and with it, the volume of commerce and it’s attendant wealth creation. That’s why I’m not a fan of ‘hard’ money – precious metals – because they’re inherently deflationary.
There are plenty of alternative ways that surplus wealth can be stored for future consumption. Here’s one.
I regard money (the concept, not the folding stuff that’s actually in my wallet) as part of the Commons. It belongs to all of us, collectively and none of us, individually. The rot set in, when the concept of money was privatised. No individual (or organisation) should ever have the exclusive privilege of controlling a society’s money.
The way our money system works dictates how our economy (and our society) functions. Mike Ruppert once commented that, until you change the way money works, you change nothing.November 1, 2010 at 9:41 pm #441101DB346Member
All part of the way our society is set up.
Our capitalist globalisation way of thinking is not sustainable and the primary reason I believe we can expect similar GFC events in the next couple of years.
Our system sets us up to consume, consume, consume, grow, grow, grow, borrow, borrow, borrow etc etc, but it is obviously not sustainable. Resources are finite, production is actually finite and money should be (but isn’t because of our ‘debt’ based growth financial system), so we end up with system that is reliant on growth via consumption and a ‘fake’ money promise.
A ticking time bomb when we consider that it is all reliant on the ever-growing consumption of fininte resources on our planet. Peak Oil will certainly be a ‘push’ factor IMO.
At least many of us ALSers are trying too (or succeeding) in bucking the growth/consumption way of life.
I personally have a long long way to go, but am getting there – ever so slowly!November 5, 2010 at 1:26 am #441102
Have you read this regarding a new theory of money? I know this may seem off topic but I think that the inter-linking of money and oil has become so ‘essential’ to the functioning of our society that often one informs the other in obvious and sometimes hidden ways.
It seems to have some similarities with the links that you gave, Bootstrapper.
I have to admit, until I got here on the ALS site, I found very few people willing to actually think and discuss these ideas save for a few insightful people. I had a great talk with our receptionist the other day about her debts and she was saying that she was staggered by the strange understanding that when she took a loan out for her car, no ‘money’ actually changed hands. It was ‘just digits in a computer.’ We then agreed that Credit cards should be re-named Debt cards. If we can take ownership of the language then perhaps we can actually make some new thoughts for people to use when it comes to understanding money and how its debt based nature is at the root of it.
Have to agree with you, DB346, the system doesn’t seem to me to be sustainable; I wonder if the system knows that? Or at least, whether those with what appears to be the most control know that.
I’m really heartened though, that there are people who are beginning to see through so much of this;
eg AutomaticEarth, CSPER, Chris Martenson and many of you folks here. Thanks for sharing some more knowledge with me.November 5, 2010 at 9:31 am #441103GrethMember
Its all getting closer, the US just ‘invented’ some money to keep themselves growing. I saw a historian recently saying that the best sign of a country’s imminent collapse was that it was borrowing far more than its actual production could support, and that the US was way into the red zone already. I hope we haven’t followed them too far.
Countries and individuals should not use more resources than they actually produce in a given day. Mobile phone sales does not constitute actual production, are you doing something useful?November 5, 2010 at 1:25 pm #441104roadwarriorMember
The day of reckoning for the US is coming. Whether they go out with a bang, whimper or earth shattering KA-BOOM is anyone’s guess. Lets just hope someone is still able to buy all the crap coming out of China once the US slides into decline, otherwise our mining boom will go bust and we’ll follow them.
When will all this happen? My bet is within the next 5 years, definitely within the next ten.November 5, 2010 at 3:42 pm #441105
For some reason, despite the fact that Roadwarrior’s prediction is somewhat similar to mine and it is ostensibly a gloomy one, I started to laugh somewhat maniacally. I can imagine us as a society all running around singing,
“If I were a rich man,
Ya ha deedle deedle, bubba bubba deedle deedle dum.
All day long I’d biddy biddy bum.
If I were a wealthy man.
I wouldn’t have to work hard.
Ya ha deedle deedle, bubba bubba deedle deedle dum.
If I were a biddy biddy rich,
Come on, sing it with me.
We have twice as much money in the system as we used to but for some reason we keep feeling like we’re worse off. No wonder I’m laughing. Bwahahahahahahahahahah….uhhhh. Ahem.
Sorry, now we’ll return you to your normal programming.November 5, 2010 at 6:35 pm #441106DB346Member
I think we are in a far better financial position than the US, however, it does not mean that if the US is ‘brought back down to earth’ via financial collapse that we will be in the clear. The world is all so linked nowadays. Too much for my liking.
If the US declines, I suspect it will have a massive effect on China and western Europe and will then drive a flow on effect all the way through to one of the biggest raw materials shops in the world.. us in Australia.
We produce far less than used too and if the US and/or China and/or Europe and Asia have a downward turn, one or all will have an effect on us. We are so reliant as a society on what is imported into this country.
It is part of the reason I enjoy ALS. We are going back to the simple/local and sustainable lifestyle. In saying that though, we will find it difficult getting parts from other places around the world etc.
Oil and money should be used in the same sentence; but so should population, resource depletion and climate change. Everything is linked.November 8, 2010 at 5:12 pm #441107
Thanks for the link, murdamcloud.
I also advocate the reintroduction of local currencies as part of the total response to the collapse of globalisation and national economies. In fact, it’s probably the most fundamental response any community can implement.
The economic problems afflicting the industrialised economies of the world today are the direct result of their addiction to (economic) growth and that addiction is the direct consequence of the way their (our) money systems operate.
Dmitry Orlov talks about collapse as occuring in stages. We are now well into Stage One. In PO circles, I’m regarded as a ‘Doomer’ but I don’t think society will collapse into chaos and disorder. Certainally the growth-addicted economic system that’s dominated the world for the last two centuries is doomed but as long as economically extractable supplies of fossil energy and raw materials remain, Industrialism will continue in some form. My own back-of-the-envelope calculations indicate that with a 7% (that’s between the most optimistic 3% and the most pessimistic 15% estimates) decline in Oil production and assuming we use all that can be produced, the Oil won’t actually run out until the end of this century. Collapse may go to Stage 2 in some places, Stage 3 in others and perhaps Stage 4 in a few. Stage 5 may happen somewhere – Zimbabwe or Hati perhaps? But that will be the exception, not the rule. Australia may go to Stage 2. The USA is likely to go to Stage 3. The former USSR went to the brink of Stage 3 and recovered.
Whatever emerges from the ashes to replace the current economic system cannot be growth-addicted. And since it’s the way the Money works that drives how the economy functions, the most fundamental key to recovery, is to reinvent the money system.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.