March 19, 2012 at 6:57 pm #490533
Freddog post=340682 wrote: I remember not so long ago when there were many who said that it was scientifically proven that no cancers were caused by smoking cigarettes, a bit different today with the opposite being proven.
As a point of interest, many of the same industry-funded “think tanks” involved in misleading people about the dangers of smoking are now involved in misleading people about the science of climate change. Same tune on a different fiddle and it is we in the greater community, who don’t have scientific backgrounds, who they are trying to dupe.
As I mentioned above, the physics is very simple and the forcings are well understood. The climate has changed in the past, true, but we have very good explanations of why it changed. There are no magical cycles caused by cosmic rays or moonbeams.
Temperature measurements are confirming what physics is telling us. Not only measurements, but obvious things like the melting of glaciers and Arctic sea ice, the early arrival of warm seasons, changing migratory habits of animals and the slow acidification of the oceans provide all the proof most of us need to admit that the globe is warming, it is due to our carbon dioxide emissions and it will get nasty if we don’t stop pumping those emissions into the atmosphere. The quickest way to stop someone emitting pollution is to charge them for the privilege, which is what an emissions trading scheme is all about.
I respect anyone’s right to a different opinion, but I would like to help that opinion be based on factual evidence, not rumour and hearsay. If someone looks at all the evidence and still says it’s a hoax, that is their right, but at least they will have looked. The “think tanks” want to convince us not to look, by filling our heads with soothing words. It is easier to hear “there, there, don’t worry” than to hear “we have a problem which is getting worse every day”.
The longer we delay action, the more money the fossil fuel industry makes out of us. It is as though we are in a bus, driven by fossil fuel interests, which is heading for a cliff. Most expert drivers can see the cliff and are yelling for the bus driver to stop, but he has his foot flat to the floor and is saying in a soothing voice “don’t worry, there is no cliff”.
The evidence is available to anyone with an internet connection. Look up the papers published by scientists actively researching in areas that affect climate. Don’t believe some third party, like me: go to the source, the research, the analysis, the original data.
For anyone wanting to look further, try starting at Skeptical Science, where every bit of information is backed up by links to the supporting research papers. That is just one site where the science is explained and made accessible; there are plenty more. All it takes is the motivation to look for yourself and not blindly believe whatever the media want you to believe.
If anyone wants more information and is uncomfortable about Skeptical Science, just post questions here and I will do my best to find and point you to accurate answers by the experts. Of course, it is up to you to decide who is telling the truth: I can’t help you with that.
For a really good explanation of the history of the discovery of climate change, have a look at The Discovery of Global Warming – A History. You may be surprised at how long people have been working on this and the fascinating things they have discovered.March 19, 2012 at 10:54 pm #490534
I agree with what you say but I am not sure about the last comment relating to the earth being here for a few more billion years simply because you will not be around to prove that and on the other hand I will not be here to disprove it.
I would like to believe that after mankind has died out, the earth and the flora and fauna on it will continue to flourish and relish in the fact that they survived due to their own perseverance and the fact they outlasted the biped that for so long (for the sake of a better description) held them to ransom.
I understand where you are coming from but please remember that good scientists are open to change and will continue that practice because they understand that as things change so does the science. A bad scientist is one who sticks to his or her first assumption and will not alter even in the face of new information.
I get the impression that we have gone about as far as we can go with this thread unless we alter the discussion to one where we can talk about ways we, as individuals can do our bit, no mater how small, in reducing our impact in relation to the planet we call home.March 20, 2012 at 12:56 am #490535AndreKeymaster
Freddog post=340695 wrote: Andre
I get the impression that we have gone about as far as we can go with this thread unless we alter the discussion to one where we can talk about ways we, as individuals can do our bit, no mater how small, in reducing our impact in relation to the planet we call home.
Words of wisdom – and for one who has only just joined us!
A belated greetings to you, Freddog. :wave:
The trouble with these sorts of threads (as you may have surmised) is it becomes a broken record.
Everyone has an opinion, right or wrong, and it soon becomes a tit-for-tat “I can-post-more-links-than-you” affair. (no offence intended anyone – I too add the occasional link when I feel it in the forum’s interest).March 20, 2012 at 12:13 pm #490536
Freddog post=340695 wrote: I get the impression that we have gone about as far as we can go with this thread unless we alter the discussion to one where we can talk about ways we, as individuals can do our bit, no mater how small, in reducing our impact in relation to the planet we call home.
Freddog, I agree. Remember, however, that we have to recognise that we are making an impact, before we will be motivated to do anything about it. As long as people believe that CO2 (carbon dioxide) emissions are not causing a problem, they will resist any costs involved in reducing them.
I am happy to change the name of this thread to “What we can do about impacts of climate change”, if that is possible.
If we agree that increasing CO2 is affecting our climate, the question is what we as individuals can do about reducing our emissions. The answer is we can, depending on our budgets, reduce doing things that require energy from burning fossil fuels:
[li]Walk, cycle or use public transport whenever possible, instead of taking the car out of the shed[/li]
[li]Minimise the use of grid electricity, which is often generated by coal- or gas-fired power plants[/li]
[li]Install solar panels for electricity and hot water. This is still a good idea, even if the government in its infinite wisdom (cough) removes all subsidies, although incentives make solar more affordable. My wife and I are saving up to do just this, although it will take us some time on a limited income (like many people reading this, I would guess)[/li]
[li]Grow our own food, rather than buying food shipped in from all over the world[/li]
[li]Don’t switch on the air-conditioning, unless and until it is a matter of survival (which is almost never)[/li]
[li]Don’t switch on the heater (gas or electricity), unless and until it is a matter of survival (which is almost never)[/li]
[li]Switch off appliances at the wall when not in use, to save all that trickle ‘stand by’ power usage[/li]
[li]Change to low consumption lighting, like fluro’s and LEDs[/li]
That is just for starters and I would welcome other people’s ideas here. Not only is all this saving CO2 emissions, but it is saving us money in the long run.
Another thing we can do is vote for pollies and parties that promise to do something constructive about CO2 emissions and other polluing activities.
Finally, everyone reading this has access to the Internet, so you also have access to mountains of information on the subject. Use this incredible tool to do your own research. Educate yourself and you will be able to educate others, by example.
Take nothing on trust. When I hear or read a claim that doesn’t fit with what I know, I ask the person making the claim to prove it, or withdraw it. Only if it can be proved, do I accept it into my view of the world.
I’m not a scientist. I’m just an interested average bloke, who has taken time (of which I have plenty) to learn. I believe nothing, until I can see the evidence for myself. Evidence, evidence, evidence!March 20, 2012 at 4:33 pm #490537
I was prepared to walk away from this thread but owlbrudder’s remarks have prompted me to mention some of what we do to eliminate our emissions.
We live entirely off the grid. We produce our own electricity via solar panels with generator backup, we have solar hot water backed up with a wood burning stove, we have larger than average vegetable gardens plus a sizable orchard and we recycle as much as we can.
We do not have a reticulated water supply and use only rainwater in the house for all of our needs and use ground water runoff for the fruits and vegetables.
About three years ago we had an energy audit and we are about 30 tonnes in credit but unfortunately the audit did not include the share we should contribute to the local supermarket, post office and shire office etc.
At the present time we are having our vegetable gardens tested for nutrients as we know that there are deficiencies in some of the trace elements and because of this we may not be getting those same trace elements back into our diet which may in turn effect our health long term.
We do not have air conditioning or a microwave and because of our solar power we do have to switch off at the wall after using electrical appliances.
I am not sure about voting for the politicians who promise to do the right thing because going on past experiences with most of them the promises are never kept.
Having access to the internet is great for getting information but it has been our experience that you have to read a lot and then pick out the section that you believe relates best to your needs and try it for yourself. This happened to us in relation to our solar power, we listened and learnt from other people but after ours was installed we then realised just how little we knew and had to learn all over again.
We are also involved in a community garden and a healthy eating program whereby we (try to) help others in the local community better their existence. Try it sometime and find out how difficult it is to get people to alter attitudes.
Change the name of the thread if you must but I do believe it is essential to continue to keep sharing the ideas as it is the best way to learn and better ourselves.March 20, 2012 at 7:04 pm #490538
Freddog post=340739 wrote: I am not sure about voting for the politicians who promise to do the right thing because going on past experiences with most of them the promises are never kept.
I have to agree (sigh), but at least a public promise can be brought home to roost by the media.
You are living the lifestyle most likely to make a difference. If we all followed suit (I mean, all 7 billion of us), the problem would stop getting worse. Well done.July 5, 2012 at 3:50 am #490539trandtoMember
owlbrudder post=340717 wrote: I am happy to change the name of this thread to “What we can do about impacts of climate change”, if that is possible.
Rising sea levels cannot be stopped over the next several hundred years, even if deep emissions cuts lower global average temperatures, but they can be slowed down, climate scientists said in a study on Sunday.
Personally I think most of the problem is population, there are many more global biosphere issues then just CO2; water usage, over consumption of just about everything. I do many of the things you cite but even if we all do (I don’t think it will, one just has to sit and observe in any City of any Country in the World to see no chance of that), there will be more and more people and eventually that won’t be enough because there will be another billion people.
I don’t mean go out killing people or stopping people having children but I do advocate serious debate about the issue and serious resources going to educating the peoples of the Planet in that regard. Simple changes, like over the counter birth control, free vasectomies and getting the Catholic Church (for example) to stop the asinine preaching about not using condoms might be a place to start.
The best money spent on CO2 reduction would be free condoms.July 5, 2012 at 5:33 am #490540purplehatMember
Ooh, the population debate! Can I suggest that there be a fundamental change in society (and advertising, television, government etc etc).. The expectation, the goal.. perhaps more to the point, the pinnacle, of life is to produce offspring. There is HUGE pressure out there, lies about how being a parent is the most wonderful, blessed, important thing you’ll ever do.
Of course, being childfree means that I can’t possibly care about the environment. After all, I don’t have the children to think of! Goodness me.. Just tired of the bull.
I wouldn’t for a moment suggest anyone force people not to have children.. but if you dispose of all the myths and lies associated with having them (they make you into a better person, a real (responsible) adult, without them your life is empty (you won’t know ‘real’ love), they will look after you when you get old, they are all ‘worth it’ in the end, plus the old ‘might regret it later’ argument.. etc etc).. and if we give people (women especially) more options and opportunities in life other than to be a “Mummy” then I bet we’ll see a dramatic decrease in the birthrate.
Infact, I remember about 15 years ago being told in class about how the birthrate drops in countries quite quickly once the women in that country are able to access education and better living conditions.
So not only is it the right thing to do the people involved, it’s also good for the environment. Win win.July 5, 2012 at 12:44 pm #490541Jenoka77Member
I am going to add my 2 cents worth 🙂 all of the following is my opion only. I have no facts to back up my beliefs or links. It is just information I have collected throughout my life experiences.
When I left school I became a fitter and machinist and studied to become an engineer at night. My dream was to design a car that ran on water. The more I studied the more I realised it was actually possible. However every design was purchased by petroleum companies and squashed. Cause no one can make money out of it.
Life changed and I left my studies slightly disheartened. I moved on in life. Working in the wholesale organic industry whilst working in that industry I watched corporate greed out price the small stores so they could sell their products on the shelf at the larger supermarket chains. I also realised that the earth could not sustain the human population totally organic food and free range meats. There is not enough land mass to use without wiping out all there forest.
I now work full time and live on my families farm. I am setting up my “simple life” people around me think I’m crazy. All that hard work. They all however have their shopping list on my waiting list for when I’m able to supply them with fresh free range eggs and for the most part “organic” fruits and vegie. I prefer to call it “old fashioned farming”
Although I seem to be rambling. I would like to summarise.
Corporate greed and human laziness plus a population that can no longer be sustained via natural farming we will not be able to cut our emmision until its too late for humans.
As we are all here on Als I think we are all trying to do our own bit to live a better life for us our kids and our planet.
JoJuly 5, 2012 at 3:19 pm #490542
I try and use less, shop less, travel less,grow more,share more and spread the word and wait eagerly for collapse of the ponzi scheme.July 5, 2012 at 6:37 pm #490543
Most unnecessary travel, I spend a couple of hundred dollars a year on petrol.
Not too scared to go to Bundy for a stock up on basics shopping trip, just wouldn’t recommend buying a house in a low lying area as a long term investment.
I think the recent floods gave us a good indication of where the low lying areas are and Bundy certainly copped it.
Rising sea levels will follow a similar pattern as water doesn’t flow up hill.
Im aware its not your theory Len, if I want to here your theories I just have to tune in to right wing, nutjob shock jocks,with no scientific background or information, doing cash for comments courtesy of the big polluters, running misinformation campaigns so they continue the rape and pillage.July 5, 2012 at 6:49 pm #490544AnonymousGuest
i don’t listen to anyone’s theories snag’s,
i sue common sense and sense, if it isn’t common sense like when they say sea water will rise in on spot and no the other, then that is neither common sense or sense. so their morbid predictions for bundaberg simply won’t happen. yes water does not naturally flow up hill and it also finds its own level, that is why when we fill a bucket it isn’t deeper on one side than the other, as another poster said silly hey.
as for low lying areas commonly called flood plains people are noted for not picking good ground aren’t they?
lenJuly 6, 2012 at 7:59 pm #490545DennisMember
Is it possible for the average person to make an impact on what is called CO2 / Climate change theories. No what we do will not make any impact what so ever so why bother. Then if it does not help should we follow the ways of the wasters. NO. It is true we can make a big impact in the way we live and grow our food etc. By changing our living habits we can consume less power, fuel and for a large number have home grown fruit and veggies. Do we need to use some scare tactic :woohoo: to do this NO, common sense should tell us this is by far a much better way to live.
Its the same as the arguement about cutting trees for timber or wood chip. Funny human beings can spend fifty years debating what can be done when someone with half a brain in pre school could say lets plants lots more. Problem solved. Climate has been changing etc and has been happening now for thousands of years and what we do will only put power and money in certain peoples pockets nothing else. But yes by all means change your lifestyle it will impact on the lives of those around you. We will all lead healthier lives with less waste and the world will be a much better place to live in.
DennisJuly 8, 2012 at 1:26 am #490546
The worlds population has risen sharply over the past 100 or so years and this coincides with the proliferation of petroleum powered machines particularly those that are able to produce cheap food. Take away the petroleum and then there will have to be a major change in population because without it the amount of food being produced will be substantially reduced.
Potable water is also going to become a major issue as presently about 17 percent of countries import water from their neighbours and this number will increase in the future due to the ever increasing population, climate change and changes in diet.
It does not matter what is driving climate change as it is here and from all accounts it will be with us for some time. What we do as individuals to lessen the impact on our own lives and those of our families is up to us but I would say that it probably would not be the best time to be putting all of our resources into a house by the ocean.July 9, 2012 at 2:33 pm #490547
Another good tip might be to plant a few things from warmer zones in your area and maybe avoid trees that are dependant on chill factors that you marginally fit into today. (Ok for the short lived trees like nectarines)
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