May 18, 2010 at 7:58 am #464738SpriteMember
In many situations, If one person cheats a system, they can get ahead at everyone else’s expense. It works.
The only logical thing for others to do is cheat as well but once that happens, everyone loses.
Once everyone enough people cheat, playing by the rules becomes even worse so everyone has to cheat just to stay even.
Hardin’s “Tragedy of the Commons”, a paper written in the 1950’s and the mainstay of modern law, explains this phenomenon very well. It explains the reasoning behind honesty box systems, equal divvying of chocolate cake, and theft of “global public good” commodities, such as water.
Worth googling if you enjoy the mindgame stuff.May 18, 2010 at 8:27 am #464739mum2twinsMember
i am not out to pick a fight………. But but I don’t buy into the anti vax push at this stage!!
I am just not convinced that the devastation of what some of these diseaes can do is worth the risk of not vaccinating.
Why doesn’t anyone mention the 3 babies that died from whooping cough last year ( yes they were too young to have been vaccinated)
Or the deaths from measles
â€¢Measles is one of the leading causes of death among young children even though a safe and cost-effective vaccine is available.
â€¢In 2008, there were 164 000 measles deaths globally â€“ nearly 450 deaths every day or 18 deaths every hour.
â€¢More than 95% of measles deaths occur in low-income countries with weak health infrastructures.
â€¢Measles vaccination resulted in a 78% drop in measles deaths between 2000 and 2008 worldwide.
â€¢In 2008, about 83% of the world’s children received one dose of measles vaccine by their first birthday through routine health services â€“ up from 72% in 2000.
Or the 22 babies born with Congenital Rubella Syndrome from 1993-2003
I could keep going about the national death rate for mumps in 2004 or the death rate for chicken pox realted deaths. ( not to mention the other side effects that these diseases can lead to.
It is up to parents to research and not have emotional sob stories to be the deciding factor in why not to vaccinate!!
And guess what I have an ASD child who was and will still be vvaccinated!!
Okay off my soap box – I just want people to make an informed decsion with them looking at both sides of the vaccination debate!!!!May 18, 2010 at 9:05 am #464740DocMember
May I take a small liberty here and issue a small but friendly warning.
The topic of vaccination is one of the more emotional threads that appear on the ALS site and it has been covered a lot in the past.
It is also one of the most locked as tempers flare after the first couple of pages covering the topic.
People on both sides of the ‘debate‘ (my italics) will argue their points vehemently and some will merely attempt to push a particular barrow.
Please be aware of this as you formulate your response(s) to points raised.
Personal attacks will not be tolerated and, personally, I feel are just rude.
Take on board anything new that you may discover and consider it a learning experience.
Thank you and enjoy your time here.
Nobody has done anything ‘wrong‘ at this stage, I believe, just I thought I would get in quick(ish) before somebody gets hurt.May 18, 2010 at 10:03 am #464741gremmblesMember
While I agree that the incidence of autism, allergies and developmental delays are rising. I have always found the idea of blaming children’s problems on vaccines a too narrow focus for my liking. Clearly something has changed in our environment for a whole range of medical condiitons to be on the rise.
It could be additives in our diet, additives pesticides, pollution, electromagnetic exposure to name a few. I remember seeing a researcher studying remote tribes in PNG. He found the introduction of western food lead to allergies never seen before. The truth of the matter is that we really don’t know and not enough studies are being done into factors aside from vaccination that may be leading to these conditions..
Personally, I vaccinate as I feel on the balance it’s safer. BUT I do monitor my son’s diet to eliminate additives and chemical that I feel may harm him.May 18, 2010 at 10:15 am #464742jennifer gMember
I cannot bring myself to read that story.
It’s too hard! I would rather not vaccinate but cannot do it. I would absolutley hate myself plus I’d never get over it if I didn’t and my child got sick and died. I also know there are risks with having it done.
I cry every time my kids get the needles, I am one BIG SOOK. I agree that chemicals in food and environment are doing a heck of a lot of damage to children’s health and behaviour too, in addition to a lot of other things that I will not bring up here. It’s the way of the world, these days, very much sadly!!!May 18, 2010 at 11:06 am #464743dixiebelleMember
Thought you might find this interesting. The vaccination part is at about 7 minutes…May 18, 2010 at 9:11 pm #464744jennifer gMember
and this morning I was sent an email with this article featured, for those interested in reading:
Exposure to pesticides is associated with increased risk of Attention-Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD) in children, according to a team of scientists from the University of Montreal and Harvard University. Published in the journal Pediatrics, the study focused on 1,139 children from the general U.S. population and measured pesticide levels in their urine. The authors conclude that exposure to organophosphate pesticides, at levels common among U.S. children, may contribute to a diagnosis of ADHD.
Want more info?
Here’s the link:May 18, 2010 at 10:08 pm #464745GrethMember
jennifer g wrote:
I cry every time my kids get the needles, I am one BIG SOOK.
Do what I do and buy them a big pressie when you get the immunisation bonus payment! After all, they deserve it.
I wonder whether we are heading in the wrong direction sometimes, maybe its not what is added to our food but what is taken away by intensive sterilization and cleaning of what we eat. Maybe we needed more of those normal bugs to develop normal immunity.
Maybe dirt really is the natural diet for a toddler!!!!May 18, 2010 at 10:42 pm #464746GgangMember
Very sad story 🙁 years ago when I usd to frequent MGH forums I was friends with a lady whose daughter had a similar reaction but didnt die just remained a “vegetable” – the bit about carrying him arround like baby but he was bigger really took me back ………….
The problem with the vaccination issue is that it should be a debate – people should become informed and make their own choice …….. but it always comes down to those in favour wanting to force everyone to vaccinate
The whole swine flu thing with rumouras ofd forced vaccination gave me nightmares 😡 I am strongly against vaccination and I know that a vaccination will kill me – I will not allow that to happen – if they bring in forced swine flu vaccination I will commit suicide publicly :@:@:@:@ you may think me crazy but it is my body and I will not let them murder me by vaccination ………… I do have severe MCS …………..
I also do not vaccinate my dog or goats as I believe vaccination weakens their developing immune system ………. and this is backed up by Pat Coleby in her book “Natural Goat care “
but overall the issue is that I have done the reasearch and formed my opinion on what is best for me and mine ………… all we ask is that our opinion and our right to chose be respected
AnneMay 19, 2010 at 12:10 am #464747RobyneMember
If I had my children today I would be thinking long and hard before I decided with them. When my boys had theirs they had to wait till they were nearly 4 months old before it was done.
Now there are a lot more in the injection can they be working against each other/
Before the boys had theres I had to have them skin tested to see if the reacted to them as I do. My arm swells up and I get very sick. When I was in England they made me have all the injects as the teacher said Australia was so far back ward I could of brought any disease into the UK. I was 6 and anded up in hospital very ill.
My Main reason for doing my sons was I had a teacher who had Polo as a child and lost the use of her arm. It has always stayed with me how she used to swing her arm to put a book under it.
Hubby has the flu shot every winter but now the pig flu has been included in it he is thinking twice about it.May 19, 2010 at 12:11 am #464748GrethMember
Im in favour, but dont want to force it on everyone, so I don’t fit your conceptions there. Certainly I would never encourage anyone like you with a known medical problem to have vaccinations.
If anyone who doesnt vaccinate loses a child to measles, I would be there with hugs and sympathy, not standing back saying I told you so.
I may not agree with some views, but I will defend to the death your right to express them!May 19, 2010 at 12:21 am #464749urban-wombatMember
1952-5 polio outbreak
In the mid 195’s I spent many months in the National Orthopaedic Hospital UK after a road accident .. and I’m one of the lucky ones .. I had already received the vaccination at school some months before.. many other around me at the NOH weren’t so lucky.
So vaccination is a good thing ColMay 19, 2010 at 12:51 am #464750MareeSchurmannMember
Well said, Greth!May 19, 2010 at 1:32 am #464751ScarletMember
Does the polio vaccination have known side effects? I’ve never heard of any in the media…
What Greth said…May 25, 2010 at 11:05 pm #464752lorisMember
I am not anit or for. But my opinion is that babies, with their immature livers and immune systems should not have vaccines so early. Of course, this means a great sacrifice for the mother as she cannot put her child into care etc without vaccinating. It is a lifestyle choice as much as a health choice.
My mother who is not in favour of new fangled medicine says that as I have never had to stand and listen to my child strangling to death with diptheria, I am not entitled to have an opinion. I think there is something with that as well. Health workers who nurse children sick from preventable diseases are very vocal in their support of vaccination.
There are so many reasons for and against. My first daughter nearly died from the vaccinations. My second daughter was not vaccinated (of course). When they were in their late teens, I wished them to be vaccinated for rubella as you would not wish to give birth to a disabled child. They were unable to access only a rubella vaccine – they had to have the triple antigen. But at 17 I was happier to let them have it.
The second child who was never vaccinated had to have blood tests before the vaccination and the doctor told her she actually had antibodies to rubella. Well, shut my mouth! When did that happen? To my knowledge, she’s never had it but she is immune. Must have got a dose somewhere at some time. I’m such a bad mother…..
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