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A life changing talk?

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  • #257655
    AndreAndre
    Keymaster

    G’day all

    I was in a Traditional Chinese Acupuncture and Herbal Medicine clinic today.

    After a discussion, the Doctor suggested I look up the name Gary Yourofsky on youtube or google.

    http://www.adaptt.org/ – his website

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=es6U00LMmC4

    For those that don’t know the name or the guy – like me up until an hour ago – he is a Vegan activist.

    For about 45 years, I was a meat-eater. For various reasons, over-night about 5 years ago, I went vegetarian, and never looked back. Yep. Love the taste of meat in all its forms, and having been to several dozen countries during my Navy life, I have eaten quite a lot of different meats.

    I guess you could say I was quite ‘proud’ of my lifestyle change – not being the cause of any animal deaths. “My stomach is not a graveyard for animals”.

    But, I couldn’t see the reasoning behind Vegans. I thought, at the least, the no dairy/ no egg/ no honey sort of diet was ludicrous. Turns out, I was wrong. (amazing what can happen when one opens the mind) I can understand now why, and after this vid, you might have a different attitude too.

    I know it has changed my attitude to many things – including veganism.

    Will I change to a vegan diet / lifestyle?

    I’m not sure – it was something I considered ridiculous until I saw the vid.

    If you watch the vid, you will see why the commercial factory farms for meat, milk and eggs is deplorable.

    You see, my aim is to be self sufficient on my property. I had intended to have chooks, ducks, geese (for eggs, weeding and pest control) and a couple of cows as well for milk & cheese.

    Assuming this doesn’t change, I can only hope that my treatment of my pets – and they will be pets – will not be seen as exploitation or cruel.

    #531413
    AndreAndre
    Keymaster

    Hi there Natural Mumma

    Welcome to ALS, and thank you for your post.

    Other than the speech (on vid) I have also not read his essays, or much else at this point.

    Certainly not going to defend anyone who condones violence of any description (except self-defence).

    In the vid, he does ask – if the forced insemination of another is called rape or sexual abuse – why is it different between a human (animal) and cow, horse (animal) etc .. and; if violence and torture is abhorrent when done to a human, why is any less abhorrent when done to another animal?

    Powerful and penetrating questions, but it isn;t all about that. In general, it is about the cruelty throughout the food industry to all animals. I did find it very informative – if uncomfortable.

    #531414
    Anonymous
    Guest

    surely the treatment of humans should be held seperate from how some mistreat animals that are bred for food production, not good to cast the net wide. humans are not in teh animals kingdom as such we are supposted to guardians rule doninion over nature as good husbandmen not of rapers and pillagers of nature, very common by the upper echalon.

    vegetarianism why classy it up and call it veganism? maybe because vegeterianism is more associate with people of other beliefs. if we raise our own food animals and care for them then why should they not provide us with their sustanence?

    we need to elevate care of humans above all else, people simply need food to eat without chemical enhancements, and high density farming.

    take care lots of false myth around

    len

    #531415
    AndreAndre
    Keymaster

    Sorry len .. have to disagree.

    Have you seen the vid, or read anything about veganism? No point arguing a case with little understanding of it. I too thought it was vegetarian’s going over-the-top, but my sentiments have changed somewhat.

    I wouldn’t say veganism is classed-up vegetarianism. Yes, the do all have a herbivorous diet, but vegans remove ALL animal derived byproducts. Not just the meat – which isn’t required anyway to gain sustenance. All our dietary requirements are found in vegetables, fruit, legumes anyway.

    And as for prioritising the human animal over other animals? 99% of the time I would, but there are a few human animals out there I’d hesitate to defend – if the choice had to be made.

    Personally, I’m not opposed to home-farming where chooks, bees and other livestock etc are kept securely and well treated, but one could argue even a nice prison is still a prison. I don’t condone home butchering – slaughtering an animal just for taste. Barbaric imho.

    The belief here is that we are all animals, and therefore, what makes the torture of one better or worse than the torture of another? I’d like to see some evidence of us NOT being in the animal kingdom. Got any? Who has determined we are guardians of other animals?

    And afraid to say it, but to declare that the ‘upper echelon ‘ are the only ones responsible for raping and pillaging, I also disagree.

    However, I do agree with what you say in one regard though, there’s a lot of false myth – and ignorance – around. Which one are you referring to?

    #531416
    AndreAndre
    Keymaster

    Hi all

    More on my recent consideration of dietary intake …

    There seems to be a misconception that humans are meant to eat meat.

    On the contrary, medical (scientific) evidence indicates almost exact similarities between the human animal and other herbivorous animals.

    We CAN consume meat – but with detrimental effects over the long term (heart disease, osteoporosis, cancer, cholesterol …).

    If humans were meant to be meat-eaters, it would only be as scavengers because we haven’t the physical capabilities of catching our prey – we are slow in reflexes, poor senses, teeth unsuitable for ripping and tearing raw flesh, no claws … How many animals have you run down and mauled today?

    Sure, we can shoot another animal, or trap it … but simply because we can do these things, doesn’t mean we are supposed to. Sometimes we see cats – for example – chew grass (I think this is because of some stomach upset?) but regardless of why, does that make them an omnivore? Obviously not. Similarly, while we can consume meat, but that only make us an omnivore by habit, not by ‘design’.

    http://bodyscience.org/are-humans-carnivores-or-herbivores/

    http://www.vegsource.com/news/2009/11/the-comparative-anatomy-of-eating.html

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kathy-freston/shattering-the-meat-myth_b_214390.html

    We seem to lack many other things a true meat-eater would require (to be successful):

    Our body has difficulty in breaking down the high acid derived form animal protein, it can, and does, but we suffer for it. Osteoporosis – generally caused by a calcium deficiency. Our body needs phosphate to break down the acid from animal proteins, and the best source for that is our bones. The body will sacrifice the skeletal structure to preserve the organs. It breaks down the bone structure, removes the phosphate to neutralise the acid, and we excrete the calcium.

    In the US, one of the highest meat-eating societies, osteoporosis is one.

    http://www.news.cornell.edu/chronicle/96/11.14.96/osteoporosis.html

    http://www.gorillaprotein.com/monkey_osteoporosis.html

    #531417
    SnagsSnags
    Member

    Andre post=354341 wrote:

    I’d like to see some evidence of us NOT being in the animal kingdom. Got any? Who has determined we are guardians of other animals?

    And afraid to say it, but to declare that the ‘upper echelon ‘ are the only ones responsible for raping and pillaging, I also disagree.

    However, I do agree with what you say in one regard though, there’s a lot of false myth – and ignorance – around. Which one are you referring to?

    Agree

    Man is the worst animals of all,responsible for most of the rape and pillage only that animal would give himself such a worthless title to make himself feel more important than he actually is.

    #531418
    Anonymous
    Guest

    that’s ok snage, as teh spider said to fly when she was tempting the fly into her nest. wisdom on these things is very short in this myth driven culture.

    the worst animal humans (your term) are the upper echalon who continue to rape our resources for proft and share returns, so those with share in teh misery of humans worship and protect those raping mogul’s.

    we humans the meek and humble are supposed to be guardians for all creatures and plants, but we get little impact apart from blame, when we are not the rampant consumers.

    if you earn from and lord the upper crust then you may never see.

    len

    #531419
    AirgeadAirgead
    Member

    Andre

    Not so sure about the humans not adapted for hunting thing. There is lots of good research happening on that and it turns out that humans are superbly adapted for a type of hunting called sustained chase or endurance hunting. This is how tribal societies like the bushmen in Africa hunt. The key adaption is an efficient running gait (yes… slower than many but ever see a cheetah run for 5 hours?) and the ability to lose heat while running.

    Most animals that loose heat through panting can’t pant while running so they need to run a little then stop and pant to cool down then run some more. In a hot climate a human can literally run a deer to death through hypothermia in a couple of hours.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endurance_running_hypothesis (as a very brief intro with links to some papers)

    Still an open question but the evidence so far is that we are better adapted for an omnivorous diet than a purely vegetarian one. We aren’t true carnivores for the reasons you mentioned but we also lack a number of key adaptions that would make us true herbivores. The closest analogues to a human digestive system are seen in pigs and bears. Both omnivorous.

    The main problem with eating meat is not eating meat.. its eating way too much meat. We probably evolved to get around 10% of our calories from meat. A modern diet is way higher than that for most people.

    Cheers

    Dave

    #531420
    AndreAndre
    Keymaster

    🙂

    #531421
    AndreAndre
    Keymaster

    Interesting link there Airgead … (even if it has the word hypothesis in it 😉 )

    Even so, the 10% meat intake could be gained from being scavengers – and not hunters, as such.

    And even then, perhaps the body can accommodate that low amount of meat intake (animal protein) without undue side effects.

    🙂

    #531422
    AndreAndre
    Keymaster

    😉

    #531423
    AndreAndre
    Keymaster

    I’d rather not get into this bickering, but I guess as the thread was started by me, some attempt should be made 🙂

    Again, there is mention of a myth driven culture. What specific myth are we talking about?

    That humans are part of the animal kingdom? No doubt the links I could post will not convince you (nothing seems to), so why don’t you post a link that proves humans are NOT animals?

    Also, can you prove that only the upper echelon (note the spelling) are responsible for the raping the planet of our resources. If someone uses a resource (say – cheap imported corrugated iron from China) then surely they hold some responsibility towards this ‘raping’.

    Can you also show me where we humans (meek and humble?) are supposed to be the guardians for all creatures and plants? What is a rampant consumer? Do you eat? Do you buy things?

    😉

    #531424
    Anonymous
    Guest

    sorry andre you do seem to have head in bucket ideas, no i do not rape our environment, chinese tin and chinese string(tomato’s) is all that is out there the mguls who rape caused that for extreme profits, teh picture is very skew, sorry about spelling being grammar critic seems to be a role you enjoy.

    you can post whatever “best fit” links you like it proves nothing, the links don’t have thousands of years of print copy, all they have is conjecture, common sense says (oh heard on media common sense is neither in action or taught at universities – now that goes straight to the roots hey?) if we are all animals then who is going to be teh goodhusbandmen to tend the animals and plants? obviously not the rich who provide investment in human misery.

    no good mentioning wher the human ethics come from because again it is opposed under teh “best fit” very few have any real understanding and knowledge of that which oseey go against.

    len

    #531425
    SnagsSnags
    Member

    Andre post=354442 wrote:

    Again, there is mention of a myth driven culture. What specific myth are we talking about?

    Im assuming its the God myth man seems to use to make himself feel more important than your average animal.

    #531426
    AirgeadAirgead
    Member

    Andre post=354440 wrote: Interesting link there Airgead … (even if it has the word hypothesis in it 😉 )

    Even so, the 10% meat intake could be gained from being scavengers – and not hunters, as such.

    And even then, perhaps the body can accommodate that low amount of meat intake (animal protein) without undue side effects.

    🙂

    We probably did a good bit of both. If you look at tribal society, they do just that. They hunt when they can but if they find someone elses fresh kill they will happily steal that instead as its easier. I watched a fantastic doco a while back where a hunting party of three using a few traditional tricks, managed to scare a pack of 10 or more lions from their kill. It took them less than a minute to butcher off a haunch and run away with it before the lions realized they had been conned.

    Bears will happily scavenge but will hunt if the opportunity arises.

    Regardless of the source of the meat, anatomically we are omnivores.

    As long as we can do it ethically, and don’t consume too much, meat isn’t a problem.

    Cheers

    Dave

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