I should note that my comment was not related to race. It was related to the mentor/mentee relationship in any circumstance.

Can I clarify that in writing my post I was considering all people (irrespective of whether indigenous or not) who might live in areas where learning to hunt might be beneficial.

I don't think anyone is insisting such an approach. Though I may be wrong

suppose at teh end of the day, the undercurrent is that we are all australians primarily, and that we all need to work together for the betterment sustainability of where we live. opportunities should be there the same for all to grasp. many too would like their day in the sun to enjoy nature but for many that won't happen as there is little chance of even being able to catch a legal fish nearby let alone consider taking other things.

len

Maybe indigenous Aussies would of preferred the Japanese to have won the war.... The whales, dolphins, turtles and dugongs would already be gone by now so there wouldn't be a problem.....

(disclaimer: I'm not being totally serious... It's just there is a lot of war footage on TV atm as it is 70years since Poland was invaded and it has me thinking about it)

Sorry herbman - must've come over a bit more emphatically than I meant it.

I'm afraid that the current Qld government seems totally intent on insisting that our indiginees stay in the past. Wild rivers sound lovely, but southern rivers have been used as everything from sewers to water-sources (and often both:rip: ), so how can we say that they can't use their rivers up there as they wish. Just because they were too far away for us to ruin first!

Because while everyone (and I do literally mean every human on the planet) has more hunter-gather ancestors than agrarian or industrialised ancestors, only very few have an existant cultural connection to that past. Indigenous hunting isn't about sport or recreational diversion.
I agree. But viewing those opportunities as being equal only when they look the same (everyone hunts or no one hunts) misses some deeper issue, I feel. Access to hope, purpose, cultural involvement is the equality we're all owed. How they're achieved can look differently.

I work against environmental degredation 8-5, 5 days a week. I've filmed turtles sliced open by outboard motors. My next two assignments will be with indigenous people who are actively fighting for environmental and cultural preservation and against the crushing lack of hope for their kids. This isn't an argument for or against the topic being discussed. I add it because it affects my perspective. As much as I, a vegan, hate hunting (and feed lots and slaughter houses) I do support the issue of indigenous hunting.

A PS tidbit: 5 dugong and around 50 turtles are killed in QLD waters each year by leisure craft outboard motors. That's the recorded deaths only. The number is believed to be higher.

Good thoughts and points Marigold and Kippen...

A bit off topic (sorry), but this discussion is similar in some ways to arguments about retaining traditional housing in some other countries. Many commenators in the West criticise (particularly) Asian and African countries for destroying 'traditional' housing in favour of more modern (and often ugly) appartment blocks.

But having seen some of the options, I think everyone should be allowed the opportunity to live in sewered, climatically appropriate housing with adequate security and comfort for them to have hope and to realise their personal aspirations.

Some of my ancesters visited north QLD when they came out here about 4,000 years ago. They did a lot of hunting and fishing, Back then the traditional way of hunting was with high powered rifles because the large animals later called dinosaures were a bit of a problem. A few of the asian slaves that came out with them stayed and bred and became a mixed breed. Fishing was done by using large nets behind there ships. They did a lot of uranium mining and took it back to europe to build there atomic stock pile. They later blew the stuffin out of each other and the survivers reverted back to hunter gathers and simple living.

Dennis

I'm surprised you feel that traditional housing is not climatically appropriate Andy. Most cultures develop housing that suits their environment very well. When the English moved out here they kept up their traditional building practices for the first round of building, but by the time they were building once more, they were adding verandahs, and other features that fitted this climate better. I think it is possibly unsound to assume that western modern amenities would be better - all it would do is raise demands on environmental resources. Those nice tidy towerblocks require heating and lighting and lifts and all manner of features that can be avoided in traditional housing.

Certainly basic hygiene and waste disposal is essential, but beyond that, you can run into all manner of difficulties. The poms are still recovering from the impacts of their post-war slum clearances that destroyed communities and broke down social relationships that had evolved in the terrace-housing those nice clean towers replaced. And the effects of that are to be seen in the condition those nice clean towers are in these days. Most you would not want to go to without a police escort and breathing filters due to people using the stairwells, paths and corridors as urinals.

In a country like China where the government tends to grab and idea and run with it, you can run into all manner of problems by going into wholesale replacement of traditional housing with flats that do not accommodate extended families and provide for that sense of community belonging that is an integral part of chinese culture.

Would like to see how those next two assignments went, Kippen! and good on you for being vegan!

Are there any aboriginal people on this website? If not, why not?

I think it is easy to discuss something that you are not part of. But to answer the original question I think limited hunting should be allowed. I could type for hours on the damage Wild Rivers Legislation will do but perhaps that should be another thread. I would like to say more but have run out of puter time for this evening.

I have time to add a few more comments. The plight of the native people of Cape York is very dear to my heart as I grew up with these people. I am not trying to upset anyone but this is a very complicated issue.
1. A large number of people in these communities (up to 10 - 20 % in some communiites receive no government income support. Centrelink has been working to address this though I am not this is good thing either as welfare dependence is part of the problem.
2. The price of food in these communities is horrendous. It can be 30% higher that what people in other parts of the state pay. Now bear in mind that most of these people are on the dole which is a meagre income to start with. Hunting at least brings fresh food.
3. No the current practices of using boats, outboard motors, guns and nylon turtle ropes are not sustainable. Even when they do make traditional spears to fish in lagoons, the prongs are made of fencing wire.
4. Boredom is a huge issue. Can you imagine a whole community of hundreds of people waking up each morning with nothing to do? Going fishing at least fills in the day. (and yes I can imagine that many of you will tell how they should finding something to fill in their days, but that is multifaceted issue too).
5. There will always be people who break the law and abuse the system. These people are not unique to Aboriginal communities.
6. Maintaining culture and language is vital. Most people forget that english is not the first or preferred language for these people. Loss of culture and loss of pride will not help anyone. Can you imagine for a moment not being allowed to practice your culture or traditions. HOw empty would your life feel?

I will leave it at that. I think that the only person offering a way forward is Noel Pearson but again that is probably an entire nother thread. You have to blend modernisation and traditional culture. I believe it can be done.

Really interesting thread, as I'm currently studying the importance of cultures around the world. I definetly understand where you're coming from Gremmbles, in that maintaining culture and language is vital. It is, as it is in any society, modern or not. And what really makes a modern culture? I guess what I'm saying is that the Aboriginal culture/s actually is modern, because it still exists today. What we're currently learning is that just because you aren't used to something in your own culture, that doesn't mean that other practises are wrong or weird. It is very normal for the people living in that culture. I think that western society (and culture, actually) pushes for change. But in some cultures, change is not what they do.

I personally think it is not soley Aborginals anymore which effect the populations of Dugongs/turtles. There are many other threats such as the ones someone mentioned earlier eg: boat motors, pollution etc. I think that something needs to be done to allow Native Australians to continue practising traditional hunting, but also educate them about the other things that threaten these animals, so that they know to try and preserve them as much as possible.

referring to what Gremmbles said again, that boredom is a huge issue. Yes, and with all the negatives that go on in aboriginal camps such as drinking being a problem along with other things, he is right that Hunting and fishing is a very positive action in comparison to self destruction.

and (sorry I keep being about to stop writing and then think of something else to say! - it's such an interesting topic.)
I noticed a few times people mentioning the comparison between japans whaling and our own hunting? I agree to some extent. I wonder if our native hunting is on the same scale as this though?

littlechief...... what Gremmbles refers to about motorboats etc is the way the Aboriginals hunt dugongs and turtles.... thats not traditional.