I guess what I was trying to say is
Buy less, grow more, give freely to those less or even more fortunate in the community and when they question why you would do this teach them why (telling is lecturing, showing is teaching), and slowly we will change the world.
Only true change in government policy comes from ground swell support. Create Waves!! :metal:

As I read through this thread different views kept bring to my mind the book The Celestine Prophecy (I know this is fictional work.... ) in it are many of the things suggested here ...

I think we'll run out of time before the world really starts wanting to take action about population...

I hate seeing babies starving when a contraceptive would have been a lot kinder... Maybe women being able to take control of their reproductive systems needs worldwide attention, religion and other things need to step aside ...

Sorry about my sentences.... Am having a sugar crash....

I work with a lot of childless people and without exception they all travel extensively, going overseas at least once a year and quite often multiple times.
So do these childless people use more resources than say a couple who have 3 kids but are very responsible environmentally?

We are animals, maybe a bit more intelligent. and what happens if an ecosystem produces lots and lots of the same animals (or plants) the population breaks down.
Some call this die off. Not a very bright future.

If these childless couples travels a lot etc, they don't behave OK, but if families have four kids and each of them having lots of kids as well, say an average of 3.5 that makes 14 in the second generation and the third generation is even more, these kids may live very sustainable but are still less sustainable than the unsustainable couple which has died out by then.

In former time there were always a lot of kids, but most of them died before reaching adult age. Now we're so fortunate that if we have only one or two kids they are pretty sure to survive - I really prefer it like that.

Oh Wazza, please don't wish me into a job of mainstream journalism. Although the paid work would be nice, I'd hate having deadlines. I've tried twice to come back and reply to this discussion, but life whisked me away both times.

But you do raise a relevant point - what MORE can be done?

I reckon we all think this too, and it's part of the reason discussions about over population arise. Consider however, that each and every individual is unique. They have their own contribution to be made and we cannot dictate common knowledge as a general rule of thumb for everyone.

Common knowledge is exactly that - common - there's nothing unqiue about it. No innovation or evolving perception.

People aren't a science project, or a numbers game to be played. You cannot trade in women's ovaries like you would a carbon trading scheme. Common knowledge will tell you everything common about the world. It will never show you what is unique and surprising about it.

What more can be done? It's a very good question. I'm going to get philosophical here and say, how about actually enjoying the process? How about recognising the uniqueness in people's choices, and what's happening to our planet is just part of the whole process.

The planet is as wonderful today as it was 20 years ago. It's just changed - like we have.

If a place is found on the planet for an extra child, or whether there is a space where a child could be - what does it really matter to me? I don't have control over a great many things in life, but one - my own contentment.

How many people are content with their choices, their planet and their lives today? Maybe that's why we endlessly discuss what we need to fix. We aren't happy with what we already have.

You have such an awesome perspective, Metu.

mmmmmm maybe we actually need to do less and just let excess humans die off like any other species of animal when the population gets too large :geek:

what really annoys me is that some humans just breed because they have the desire to have another baby yet they take no responsibility for producing food or anything else for that one more mouth. The rest of society has to take on that responsibilty. I am prepared to take responsibilty for my goat kids but not other peoples human kids

Humans think having a child is their God given right and few just accept it if they cant conceive it infuriates me to see stupid women who cant breed whinging because they cant adopt or cant afford IVF :@:@:@:@ I was in that position so I accepted you cant always have what you want and got on with my life - I believe to do otherwise is arrogant and selfish.

Anne

Isn't that what mankind (as a whole) is already doing?

Do less or do more...just don't squander happiness on the illusion of control.

Nature is impartial after all. We're the only ones who get to choose to feel happy or sad about it.

Just because women don't think, act or do exactly as you have done Anne, doesn't make them stupid.

As Barb said, this is what happens already. Whether you like it or not, whether you try to stop it or not, or whether you are reduced to tears occasionally at the horror of the coming reality, or not.

The industrial age that has increased the world's population so rapidly will come to an end sooner rather than later. People are made of food, and food is made of fuel. We don't have another planet full of oil to tap in to, so we will reach a point where we can't feed everyone.

If you live in a place that is dependant on food being flown in/shipped in/trucked in, either the food will become too expensive, or the trucks will stop. What then? Large scale food production is dependant on machines that require fuel. How many farmers can maintain production levels with only the sweat of men and horses?

So if choosing a smaller family to lower your impact makes you happy, great. But if choosing a larger family, and teaching them how to live in the new paradigm gives you comfort, go right ahead. I don't see how either choice will make a difference to the future of the planet, and the fact that there will be a huge die-off.

Thanks for that Metu, this puts it in a nutshell for me.

fair enough Humbug stupid may be wrong but what is the correct word for someone whinging on TV because they cant have what they want ? if it was a child we would call it a tantrum .........

People have to get over the idea that they are entitled to have whatever they want - and we westerners have to get over the idea that breeding is our right because we want to

Lady B I can see why you say that but IMHO you are slightly wrong - many Westerners ( Australians, Americans, Brits, Europeans are quite happy for so called third world people to be left to die but never people in our own counries - yet we are the ones using the worlds resources and creating the pollution and carbon emissions

no doubt metu will think me selfish and hypocrtical as outlined in her post but I do live what I advocate - not in the forest, I dont think we need to go that far. There is a lot of difference between living in a city being a dependent on "the system" for everything and being carbon neutral for our power and providing as much as possible of everything else for ourselves

Anne

If you are born into the city way of life (& some country folk live like this too), this is all that you know. It takes time for education to reach some folk & then time, money etc, once again before change can be implemented. Change is not going to happen over night & I see no point in getting worked up about it. If we all do what we can, hopefully others will follow... what will be will be..

Why do you have to put a label on them ? Sometimes we have to accept, that somethings cannot be changed. If you were to approach these women & tell them they were stupid, do you think they would listen ?
Thats not the way to deal with it.

We need to lead by example & those that can will follow our lead..

Good morning Ggang.

Like you, I believe it's important to move on rather than stay in a moment of emotional turmoil. But what you saw on the TV was one moment in a person's life, expressing their grief. Who knows where they will progress to later on - maybe goats - who knows?