There's plenty to go around with the current trends of population growth. But not at the rate we're producing goods and the waste which is involved.

We have an oversupply problem based on our old industrial economy.

If you want an example, look at what has happened in China. They're only allowed to have one child per couple, but are allowed to buy their children any number of electronic toys and pets for companionship. Still, China's demand for oil with an ever expanding enconomy, is contributing to the current global oversupply problem. Which we all know by now, is completely unsustainable if we don't turn it around.

That's why I put it to you, we have the debate all wrong. If we want to start managing our resources better, we have to start remodelling the economy. China manages it's population, but doesn't curtail it's economy's growth or impact on the environment. Western countries don't curtail their population, or their economy's growth either.

It would stand to reason then, we first need a new model for our economy. One that isn't dependant on growth by numbers and respects resources as more than a profiteering venture.

If I could just pick up on what you contributed, Ggang - would you like the government to only allow you have two goats? If not, then spare a thought for those who may want more than two children. It's not what you have - it's how you treat the responsibility and manage your resources.

In a world where we can invent wealth by simply placing an "I.O.U" contract in the bank - not actually have the money - likewise, consider the population growth problems are created by comparing it to the current GPD figures. It takes nothing into consideration of the waste that gets thrown away, that doesn't actually go to people.

Metu I already practice population control with my goats - each breeding is carefully thought out no indescriminately running the bucks with the does.

My numbers of goats take into account how many my land can sustain yet few humans consider how many people our country can sustain. Each Goat I keep will contribute to our sustainablility by producing milk of siring kids to produce milk - unlike the human race unproductive members are not allowed ...........

The average city dweller expects to be supplied with power , water and a close by supermarket stocked with every food they may desire. They also expect someone to entertain them when they want it eg TV, and employ them to do something they like to earn more money to buy more junk. They expect the govt to provide education for their childen at no cost to them then train those children so they can get a job and buy junk .........

The thought of being responsible for supplying their own food , water, power and other needs never crosses their tiny mind :@ they are in effect parasites on "the system" and without that system could not survive.......

quite true, ggang, BUT why wouldn't they be like that? they ARE supplied with power, water and a close-by supermarket stocked...etc.

city life is quite removed from the realities of our dependence on the planet, i think. that part of the planet is covered with concrete and life goes on and on. in the country, if there is no rain, the land shows you every day. the key to city people is education. tricky when they're so busy with more important stuff.

obviously this is a generalisation and there are many exceptions.

the population problem is complex and is going to require a culture shift to fix. sure, we need people to pay tax to fund our retirement etc. we're not going to fix the problem here. lots of people have lots of kids (i have 3) and are enormously offended at the suggestion that they should not have had them. lots of people have no children and are enormously offended that others have so many without consideration for taking only their share of resources.

perhaps we (planet dwellers) could find a way to fix this TOGETHER, without pointing the finger at others.

maybe not. it's a corker of a problem.

kathy

Kathy I am sorry if you were offended I should have pointed out I am refering to FUTURE population control not criticising those who already have had children.

You are right that education is needed but FUTURE population contol is such a sacred cow

Have you watching Prof Bartlett's video ? he points out that unless we practice population control nature will do it for us ........ I firmly believe that .........

We do all need to work together but whenever the issue of population control comes up most Australians say yes we must stop those third world countires breeding - no thought that us westerners make the most GH gas per head and do the most damage to the planet we all have to live on :tdown:

As for tax to fund retirement etc I dont believe our growth reliant economy or our debt based financial system can possibly survive - in the future everyone will have to be self sufficient or perish - yes I am guilty of being a so called "doomer"

Anne

Many would say recipients of govt handouts are also parasites on "the system".These people pay for their childs education through their taxes.
Their children get a job and pay taxes to support education, hospitals, roads etc etc. One persons junk is another persons necccessity. I'm sure there are things you own which many would consider 'junk'. It's all relative.
History would prove that limiting the number of children by force is a failure. I always thought Australia was a free country, I for one value my freedom of choice.
The human being is hard wired to desire to procreate, those that choose not to are by far in the minority.

Some food for thought here:
http://sharonastyk.com/category/population/

Quite an interesting read Suz.

Dennis

yes ahd a quick read will do deeper read later.

this population control has been bandied around before, it is easy to say control births but then many would find a lot of pain in that as they see it as their right to have as many children as they want sp long as they have the ability to tend for them, and surely if we think about birth control also means old age control, i don' trealy think you can have one without the other, right now australia is totally unable to care for its people in the public health system so tha menas pensioners would also have to go to balance the scales, thos children are also future wage earners under our economics system and wage earners are needed to pay taxes.

so what to do with the aged wheel them out into the snowy wilderness like the eskimo's used to do to leave them perish alone and become bear or wolf fodder, there are plenty who would take this task on the jails are full of them, some ride as bike groups.

the one reason as i see it why australia can't look after its people those who need it, is that there are too few young people working in permannent jobs and payng taxes and their own way.

remember to keep the scales balanced as somewhere in that plan will come waht to do with less able children who require same or more helps than pensioners. with control comes manipulation many now opting for tests to ensure they have the perfect baby.

one thint to throw in if we lived as extended families on large enough land say 40 perches in lareg enough modest house not these excessive mcmansions that would save heaps as teh family in total becomes responsible for the family in total young and old alike. these disenfranchised families not working.

the gov' is wasting our taxes like never before, while men wait for prostrate procedures that they won't get until it turns cancerous, or the day after they die. charity begins at home look to denmark how they look afer their people are they tlking birht control.

God Bless

len

Most people will sit around and talk fluff most of the time but very few will have the courage to step out and meet the challenge. If your thinking of change its no good just knocking a few bricks off the wall of the enemies fort. You must aim for the foundation. Destroy there foundation and they will be exposed and fall.

We in the western world are already living in a controlled society but most don't even realise there way of life from birth till death is planed. If you want to look at who is behind it all look at the UN, secret societies, Bankers. the occults, plus many more with the catholic church and the jesuits at the top.

The situation we have today has been in the planing for many many years as each country is manipulated and moved into the place where it will fit best. kings and governments are all controlled by these powers which in reality are all the same anyway.

So if you want change you will need to attack the foundation other wise you will only cause a ripple.

Dennis

Good on you Grumpy
Hubby and I are heading for the retirement fund in a few years, I think we have earned our right being tax payers since both were 15 years old.
We had our 2 boys and got nothing from the government. I remember getting $2 a month for the eldest for child endowment then it went to $6 a month and when I had the 2nd it was $14 a month. It only went up when Labour came to power. If my boys wanted anything we saved for it. Even when we got got our middle boy [ hes fostered] I think it went up a few dollars. We grew our own food as much as I could shopped at cheaper times or the markets and made ends meet. When we did have a holiday we went camping in parks for free.

Down where we live is a pair of twins [they went to school with youngest son] who are making their own population explosion. Neither have worked since they left school. They have 8 and 7 children each all different fathers. We are paying for all of their enjoyment, the kids are left in day care, for next to nothing, [so they can have peace at home their words not mine]. When I work I have to rely on a friend or family to look after bubs for a couple of hours. I can change my days around. Its mainly Monday and Friday as son has changed to days. My freind looks after her for 1 hour on Monday and I have managed to get her in the local day care for Friday. but I have to pay for the day and its not cheap.

To me these people including my DS1s x should have to work and contrubute to our society before they are allowed any children. Its different if you have worked and your marriage breaks up but to sleep around just to get a pension its not on.

Sons X doesn't pay tax, never claimed, doesn't vote, considers herself a Kiwi, gets a pension, again the system is letting Australia down. She has worked but never put in a tax form so its only time before hopefully their catch up with her.

g'day robyne,

yes that is too true happening all over the place the gov encourages this with its baby bonus something none of us real taxpayers got when we ahd mortgages, car on hp and working 40 hours a week not taking sickies now we get to this end and money needed to look after us goes the the baby boom of the 21st century, and girls as young as 12 and all ages between to 16 the new age of consent. how come there are no blokes in jail for child molestation when a girl under the age of 15 falls pregnant. the jails would be full hey costing taxpayers even more. how many blokes spent time in jail for doing same to girl under the age of 17 back in the 80's and 90's.

like dennis says we are bing manilpulated i feel even more than controlled, but we are only goods and chattels in the eyes of the gov' something to be used and abused.

and with diversification of beliefs the old slogan stands true "divided we fall - united we stand" so my guess is the gov has us by those short &'s, because as sure as the sun rises in the east we are falling.

some things to think about birth control after a couple have one waht then to be sure there can be no mistakes, vasectomy is the only way, then you are heading for a time when there will be not enough breeding capable men around, then what?

so lots of young on welfare and beholding to the gov' so they will do the gov's bidding, once indoctrinated it has all been tried before but this time they have it down pat it is not one bloke facing the world gov's.

len

That article summed up my thoughts exactly, suz. I quote:

"It does not spare us the difficulty of someday depending on someone – it does not change the fact that at various times in our lives we all become people who are not productive, not perfect, perhaps disabled, and that the devaluation the disabled, of the non-productive, of our reciprocal and inevitable dependencies undermines our ability to rely on one another. Ultimately, this hurts everything but the industrial economy [my bold], which will happily supply you with a nursing home and the gas to drive to visit Mom."

We are having the wrong debate when it comes to population control. It's always about the economy utilising birth statistics as a measure of profitability. If the economy is screwing the planet, the logic seems to be, just breed fewer people. Wouldn't it stand to reason, to deal with how the global economy operates first?

We are debating how greedy we want to continue to be in our existing economy (as it operates today) while we threaten coming generations with mandatory birth control. I also like the thoughts in the article of who pays for all this birth control if it's manadated law? More taxes then? Which means more workers needed to pay for all that birth control.

Seems like a rather big conflict of interest. :confused:

Birth control hasn't worked in China. The impact on the planet is still the same - in fact, it's increasing. And it will continue to do the same, until we deal with our outdated industrial economies first. By out-dated, I mean that we place only monetary value on fiscal policy at present. It doesn't take into consideration, the greater good that can be done with people - if we dared became more attentative to people's needs.

When I think about the freedoms taken away from people in my lifetime alone (30 odd years) it scares me to think of the new ways people will encourage government legislation to intervene. How much more powerful and publicly funded have the tiers of government become as a result too?

We hand them limitless control, without realising how much freedom they will ultimately take away. And we pay them for this continual oppressive legislation.

If we bothered to give a damn about our neighbours, rather than condemning them for having needs different to our own - then perhaps we would end up helping each other more? We wouldn't need powerful governments, creating legislation in order to keep the peace.

If we bothered to give a damn that is...

I just wanted to link to another article, from the website suz orginally linked to. I think it's appliccable to this discussion:

http://sharonastyk.com/2008/04/17/the-mirror-not-malthus-the-hunger-crisis-and-the-illusion-of-scarcity/#comments

Quoted from the article:

"It is not that population is not a growing issue – at some point in the future we will almost certainly encounter this question of absolute limits – but this is not the root cause of our present disaster, and every time we pretend that the issue is primarily population (which is growing most among the poor), we are lying to ourselves – moreover we are telling ourselves that the problem is someone else’s fault. We’re going to have to ask ourselves harder questions - do I want that burger enough to justify a 9lb 2 1/2 year old? Do I really need to go to soccer practice that badly?"

The main point to consider is that once oil gets short or just a lot more expensive - and climate change leads to less rainfall - Australia cannot possibly feed even the population it has now.

Firstly most farmers have no idea how to grow food without petro based fertilisers. They can learn but they are leaving it too late and even then it wont be possible on such a large scale.

Even if it can be grown how will it get to the cities ?

Talking about limiting breeding now is an attempt to try and soften the disaster that will happen later ( As Bartlett says if we dont take care of population control nature will )

When TSHTF it wont be about taxes or jobs or whether to "off " the aged - it will be about those who can grow their own food may survive and those who cant wont.

Also with the references to pensioners and disabled above yes I am a disabled pensioner. I am going to keep taking my pension as long as it is available but I also realise there is no certainty that it will be there for ever. We are planning and working to be able to live without it.

I also do not expect to be able to get any aged care ( as well as the above reasons even if the system survives that long my MCS means I am unable to even enter an Aged care facility to visit ) So I know there will come a time when I will also have choose how I die.

Anne

I find the direction of this discussion rather ill-informed. There is plenty of evidence that population is self-maintaining such that the birth rate falls as the standard of living rises. Look at countries like America, Australia, where the average family is only about two kids. In Japan and many Scandinavian countries the birth rate is only about one child per couple - without any government interference.

Check out what George Monbiot says on this subject: http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2009/09/29/the-population-myth/ Sir David would seem to qualify as a post-reproductive, wealthy white man. :noapprove:

And there was an excellent series of articles in a recent Economist that summarised the world wide research on this subject. Give it a good read and see if it gives you a better understanding of global population issues. http://www.economist.com/opinion/displaystory.cfm?story_id=14744915

We are currently on a population downturn: http://www.economist.com/opinion/displaystory.cfm?story_id=14744915


Sure, birth control needs to be accessible for all, but China will be living with the consequences of its One Child Policy for the next several generations. Yes, they successfully reduced their population, but they suffered a lot of human rights abuses, forced abortions, gender selection etc that has resulted in some serious social issues and a gentrified population with no one but the state to care for them.

It's easy for us to spruik population control when we've probably all had our children already, unhindered. I have four kids and we maintain as small a footprint as we can - and I ain't saying it's easy. But the next generation of kids will be so much more informed about issues of consumption than we were in our day. I have much hope for my children's future. I'm not saying they won't have to adapt. But they will live freely and they will choose to have children if they wish.